Intuitive Mentor Mom: Strategies for Life Empowerment, Self Love and Gratitude for Single Moms
Welcome to **"Intuitive Mentor Mom,"** the podcast that invites you to look at life through a new lens! Join me as we explore the idea that life is happening for us, not to us, transforming those frustrating “Why me?” moments into enlightening “Ah, so that’s why!” revelations. Through my personal journey as well as others who join me on the show, we'll share insights on shifting perspectives and embracing growth as we navigate the beautiful tapestry of life together. Whether we're delving into relationships, tackling cosmic questions, or unraveling career and parenting challenges, each episode will inspire you to uncover fresh perspectives and recognize that every twist and turn is guiding you toward the best version of yourself. So, grab your favorite coffee or tea or hot toddy, get comfy, and let’s embark on this exciting self-discovery and adventure! Tune in and let’s uncover the magic of life’s challenges together!
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Intuitive Mentor Mom: Strategies for Life Empowerment, Self Love and Gratitude for Single Moms
20: Exploring Open Marriage | Ditching an Ideology for an Authentic Relationship to Happiness
Could an open marriage be the key to a happier, more fulfilling relationship; married or single? Join us as we welcome Brig and Monica Tisson, a couple who after 12 years of monogamy decided to redefine the boundaries of their partnership or "Team" as they call it. Their journey is not only about opening up their marriage but also about the incredible personal growth they've experienced along the way. From childhood friends to life partners, Brig and Monica share their story of reconnection and the challenges that led them to question traditional norms.
As life threw unexpected hurdles in their path, including health issues and fertility struggles during the COVID pandemic, Brig and Monica found their relationship tested in unimaginable ways. They speak authentically about the emotional journey of dealing with a brain tumor, the strain of fertility treatments, and how these experiences reshaped their views on intimacy, family planning and living life happy and fulfilled. The arrival of their son renewed their bond, yet they realized the importance of evolving together through each stage of life. Their candid reflections reveal the significance of letting go of preconceived notions and embracing change for personal and collective well-being.
Venturing into the realm of open relationships brought Brig and Monica to new frontiers of intimacy and self-discovery. They discuss the liberation found in questioning societal taboos, exploring new dynamics, and the continuous journey of setting intentions and maintaining transparency. Although they remain clear their journey through this exploration is not complete; their story is a testament to the courage it takes to redefine love and happiness on one's terms. Through thoughtful conversations and shared experiences, they invite listeners to prioritize authenticity, embrace the messiness of life, and pursue fulfillment in all its forms.
Thank you for listening and look forward to what's next on the other side.
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Welcome back to the intuitive mentor mom podcast, where we explore strategies for growing confidence, empowerment and gaining clarity for midlife moms. When life is happening for you and not to you, you can be living the life of freedom, fun and bliss. I'm your host, tara Michelle. Let's get to it. Welcome back to the intuitive mentor mom podcast. I'm excited to bring you this show. Let's get to it. Welcome back to the Intuitive Mentor Mom podcast. I'm excited to bring you this show. This is an exciting show.
Speaker 1:I have two very special guests because we're going to talk about open marriage and, oh, happy New Year. Y'all Welcome back to the new year. And I'm excited also because I'm planning to do a lot more interviews this year and bring you some just interesting topics that we can chew on. This one, in particular, is super exciting because I have two very special guests. My well, I'm going to say you're my friends, my friends, yes, greg and Monica Tissen. So they've actually known each other since they were nine years old, y'all, nine years old. They met in Vienna, virginia, and then, after college, they reconnected. They dated for three years. They got engaged for one year. They were married in 2017. They moved to Texas Austin.
Speaker 2:Maybe we shouldn't say that, don't want to say that, okay, they moved to Texas. They moved to Texas, that's where we live.
Speaker 1:They moved to Austin, texas, in 2017, and they have a two-year-old little boy, and we're going to talk about how their monogamous marriage moved from monogamy into open only about four months ago, which is mind-blowing to me, and how I met them is through this journey that they started four months ago, because there's a mutual person that we know together about this journey, so it's kind of exciting, okay. So, um, welcome to the show and thank you so much. You guys, thank you for being so excited. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I, I, you know I'll start off it. It um so open marriage. Yeah, I mean Thanks for having us about this. I pulled up there's several sites that have different statistics and as I started going through them they were roughly similar. But at the same time I was like, yeah, but who are you Of the 2000 people you went and picked? Did you cherry pick the 2000? Or did?
Speaker 1:you just, did you pick them from middle America? Did you pick them from the Western coast? Like, I always get a little concerned when we talk about statistics because we just don't really know. But what I didn't know is that open marriage was popularized in 1972 by George and Nina O'Neill's book that had the title Open Marriage. I don't know if you guys are familiar with that, but I want to hand it over to you before I go into all this stuff because otherwise I'll just be blabbing. But tell me a little bit about the two of you you know how you met. Yeah, Tell us, tell us all about you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it's. It's obviously been. We've known each other for a long, long time. Grew up in the same hometown. Our families are friends, our siblings are friends. I actually played baseball with Monica's brothers. Our parents were friends, so we've known each other for forever, but we really we kind of went our separate ways in high school. We went down two different paths. I was more of a jock.
Speaker 3:I was a theater nerd. The theater nerd.
Speaker 2:So different friend groups and then two different colleges, Right, and we kind of lost touch. But after college it was the random night at a bar 2 am run into each other and, you know, hit it off again and reconnect and I think I may have asked Monica on five to 10 dates before she finally said yes. And here we are, here we are Monica.
Speaker 1:why did it take so long? Why did it take so many asks?
Speaker 3:Oh well, I was not really. I always thought that he was very cute. I thought that he was a really nice person and a good person. I was not looking for someone who was interested in me Seriously. I was like having fun, I was, you know, doing my own thing and my impression of his interest was that it was serious Like that. It wasn't just to like casually hang out, and I didn't want to play with anybody's emotions if they were into me and I was not into them at that point and so how old were you guys at that time?
Speaker 3:24, I think, yeah, yeah, 24. Um, and then our mutual friend just kept being like you should just give him a chance, just give him a chance. He's so him a chance, he's so great and like, the more I would see him, the more I actually did become interested in getting to know him. And so once the like that barrier was broken, he asked me out again and I said, sure, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And so tell me, what at that time? What at that time was it that had you be interested in her? Yeah, what, what was it? And then you kept pursuing like I'm going to be about this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it was um. I think every relationship starts with like the physical attraction, Right and um, but we had known each other for so long and then, I don't know, maybe it almost became a challenge, right, Because in third grade I had this huge crush on her, you like somebody else, Tommy Umberg, and um, you know, won that battle, tommy, if you're listening, yeah, right.
Speaker 2:But it was. It was more so. Just why is this person not interested in me, right? And you know, just give me a shot at a drink, and so, and then, obviously, once it did, it all played out, and here we are married 10, 15 years later. I mean, it's been a long time.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I will say, it did only take one date.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:I went on a date with him and I was like I don't want to see anybody else, yeah.
Speaker 1:I went on a date with him and I was like I don't want to see anybody else.
Speaker 3:It's like I only want to spend time with this person.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and what was? What was it about that? What was it about that connection between the two of you, the chemistry, what, what was it that shifted?
Speaker 3:For me, it was the first person where it felt easy, like I didn't have to like, I didn't feel like I had to put on a front. I think some of that was like my own maturity and what I wanted out of a relationship and what I like, how I wanted to present myself. I think people spend a lot of time trying to mold themselves to become the person that they think they want, whoever they're interested in, to be. And I went into this with Greg saying, like he's going to take me at a hundred percent who I am, or he's not going to like me and I'm going to be fine either way. And that first date we just went for drinks and we laughed a lot. Conversation was super easy.
Speaker 3:I do think that the fact that we did grow up together. You don't when you meet someone you're like, so tell me about your family, tell me about your hometown, tell me about, like where you grew up. For us it was like okay, can you just catch me up on like the last two years Like I know basically everything about you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we didn't have to go to the standard first aid, like yeah. What do you do for work? You work with my sisters, literally at the Vnn yeah it was just uh. It was an easy connection and uh went smoothly from there yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So now here we are. However many years into the marriage, how many years are we into the marriage? Uh, it will be eight this spring. Eight this spring. But, you've been together for how long? I can't do math for shit.
Speaker 3:Almost 12 years, 12 years yeah.
Speaker 1:So what happened? I don't want to say what happened, because it's not like it's a bad thing, it's just something that you chose, but what happened? What happened that allowed you to, or caused you to explore an open marriage?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and things definitely happened. You know I look back at the beginning of any relationship. We talk about how it's the honeymoon phase, right, and it's so exciting, you're dating somebody new, and there's always the next stage of your life. And this is a big thing about us is you're kind of taught what life is supposed to look like and what happiness is supposed to look like from other people's perspective, and you never really question it, and so it's you go to school, you go to college, you get a job, you move out, you start dating, you move in together, you get married and you have kids, right, and that's that's life.
Speaker 1:And so I want to interrupt and say that's a program. I don't know, that it's life but it's a program.
Speaker 2:It's for sure and it's. I don't know where it stemmed from and why. That's the way that people think is life is supposed to look like, but that's what it is, and so we're programmed to believe yeah. Yeah, um, but early on, I mean, we were in that honeymoon phase and it was now we're moving out and there's, you know, we're moving out, we're moving in together, we're going on trips, we're having so much fun, we're going to nice restaurants, and it's you're getting the best of each other Always. You're never getting negative, right.
Speaker 2:And and at the same time, you're 24 years old, you're technically an adult, but you're still a kid Like you, don't have any concept of what you really, what life is going to look like and how things are going to change and how people are going to change. And so you know we were really and we are still happy. But you know we were really and we are still happy. But you know, the beginning it was just, it's all that excitement, and you know, sure enough, you look up 10 years later. People have changed. You don't change together. Always you go through tough times and that you hadn't before. And so for us, you know, those couple of events happened a few years ago where, right when COVID hit, I ran into a health problem out of nowhere.
Speaker 3:We were trying to have a child.
Speaker 2:We were trying to have a child. We were trying to get to that next step, yeah, that next idea of what life is supposed to look like. That's going to keep that shine, right.
Speaker 1:I love that that's going to keep that shine. Right um, and we read that. I love that that's gonna keep that shine yeah, in our minds, yes, right like that's the next thing.
Speaker 3:It's part of the program.
Speaker 2:Yes, um, and so some, some things came up. I they actually, they found a tumor in my head, um, which affected a lot of things. One, one in regards to our fertility, and then two, it really affected my mental side. Right, I did not handle it well, you know, instead of kind of leaning on Monica for help, I turned to a different path. I turned to a lot of alcohol, I turned to a lot of drugs. You know that, coupled in with COVID going on, where we're just stuck in the house, you know I was in a really bad place and I, you know I look at that, I look back and maybe it's just who I am I kind of shoulder a lot of potentially where that a little bit of separation came from, potentially where that a little bit of separation came from, um, you know I put the blame on myself there, um, but all that said, you know that led to three years of failed fertility treatments, which just for a couple. You know, if anybody's been through that it's, it's heartbreak after heartbreak.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's really challenging, yeah.
Speaker 3:And I will say, during that time I do feel like we got really close but, like trauma bonding is not necessarily the best way to build a relationship or like to continue to grow a relationship. To build a relationship or like to continue to grow a relationship, and I think that the blame he was putting on himself later on blame I was putting on myself for like things to continuously not be working for us, um, definitely caused us to like it was just a break. It was a break in the way that we related to one another and the other, the other.
Speaker 3:I think really important piece of this and people who are whether you're trying to have a kid recently or you've been trying for a long time the physical relationship between you two becomes a job. It is not fun, it is not like emotional. It is okay. We have 24 hours to try to get pregnant, or once you start going through a fertility treatment, it's you are not allowed to have sex or you are not allowed to be intimate with one another because you're gearing up for this treatment, and so that really shifted the way we related to one another in not a positive way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I mean that, that intimacy. It goes from fun and exciting to you know. For us it was now this is a job and then it was well, why are we even doing this if it keeps failing? Yeah, Right.
Speaker 3:What's the?
Speaker 2:point, and I think that it was such a drastic change from that honeymoon phase and we're onto the next step. We had just bought a house, we're ready to start a family, because, again, that's our idea of happiness, and now it's failing. And so what is that next step? And we're now, we're sad, and how do we get out of that? And so, you know, just, it was a really tough time, um, I think that it it caused some, some separation, but fortunately, um, it did end up successful. We have the most beautiful son in the world. He is fantastic, perfect baby. Um, you know, but even then it was okay. Now we're onto that next step and we have all this excitement and we're reinvigorated, and our relationship is back for nine months, and then the baby comes.
Speaker 1:So I want to hold that. Hold, let's put a pin there.
Speaker 2:I want to.
Speaker 1:I want to have you guys tell me and let's take a look at, looking back at that whole journey of fertility what was the biggest thing that you took away from that, like in terms of growth, like, if you looked at it, from all of that was happening for you, that journey that you went through. What are the biggest things you learned from that?
Speaker 3:I do think we had to let go of a lot of expectations or preconceived notions about what our life will look like and how we were going to get there. So I think, as a woman, you hold on pretty tightly to this idea that if you want to have kids that, like that, will look a specific way. Right, you will have sex with your partner a few times and then you will pee on a stick and you will like be so surprised and you will show it to them and it'll be so much excitement and you will cry and you will have this moment and then, like you're gonna go through this commercials and I'm right exactly, and I am literally like I am doing none of those things.
Speaker 3:Instead, I'm injecting myself with drugs and I will never have that moment. I will never have that experience of being surprised to be pregnant. I will never have that experience of like surprising my partner with something because we're on, we're on a shot clock and so, um, we even. We got to points where we were probably not really talking about it, but I know I was thinking a lot about well, I ever get to be pregnant. Are we going to have to go use a surrogate? Are we going to have to use someone else's sperm or someone else's egg to make our baby Like like? I think so. If I were to take a positive look at any of that, I let go of a lot of these ideals that I had built up in my head as to how you make a family, and I learned so much about kind of like breaking the mold. Maybe that is like kind of a foundational layer, to like what allowed us to be open to an open marriage, but like breaking this mold yes.
Speaker 1:I'm hearing that exactly when you say breaking the ideology, because I really believe that this point in our time, globally, spiritually, just as a construct of humanity, we are breaking ideology down. We are breaking it from the corporate level to the religious level, to the education level, every ideology is being broken down. Right now it is, it is, it is crashing like a slow, you know train wreck, just like, but I think what you said was so beautiful because that's exactly what shifted. And then you nailed it, cause I was and I'm sorry, I'll see things as you guys are talking, but that's what I saw Like oh, that's where that went, chink, which allowed this whole other space for you to open up.
Speaker 1:Because, if there's anything I want to share, just interject here real quick. So I've been dating for years. I'm like one day he's going to show up I don't know where he is, but he's going to show up someday. But years and I get that part of my journey on this planet is all about relationships, from friendships to romantic, but especially in the romantic area, and self-worth. And if there's one thing I'm really learning the last just I think it's been the most impactful, probably the last five years is that relationships are gray.
Speaker 1:There is nothing black and white about a single relationship on this planet and the fact that we have everything labeled inside of a black and white container when none of it fits. And do we even know what love is Like? Do we even understand what that means? Do we even know what love is Like? Do we even understand what that means? And I'm really learning to give people grace and allowance and acceptance to go have whatever flippant experience you want to have. We are here to have experiences and the moment we start pushing them inside this box which, hey, if that's the box you want to experience, have at it, Experience it.
Speaker 1:Jump in that box, dive in it, swim in it, have fun in it. But if you find that it doesn't fit you, it's okay. You can then get out of the box. But we push ourselves in like, oh, that's not okay, that's not okay, I have to keep doing this thing that they say that we should do, and it should look like this. It's like no, it, no it. Just it doesn't look that way, okay.
Speaker 3:Okay, now back to. I was going to say we're going to come back to that concept for sure Like, oh man, yeah, and so what for you, Brig?
Speaker 1:what did you see? What's the biggest thing you took away? I love, I love Monica's ideology, Brig, what did you see? What's the biggest thing you took away? I?
Speaker 2:love Monica's ideology. Brig, what was it for you as well? Yeah, I think the realization of perhaps happiness doesn't look like one certain thing, and we had to reevaluate that. I think that that was a big point for us. But the big thing for me was when all this happened.
Speaker 2:I think we both shouldered a lot of blame, for different health reasons, different lifestyle reasons. Why is this not working? It's my fault, it's your fault and you can't help but do that. But I think so initially it probably drove a wedge, but then, towards the end, it really I think that it moved us from a marriage to a team. Like we started looking at each other as, hey, we're in this together, right, this is not just husband and wife. Like this is my teammate right here, and so you know. We really had to kind of dig each other out of this well and say, you know, hey, we're in a tough spot right now, um, but we're going to get through it, whether you know, regardless of how that looks. And so we still have that same mentality right now. We have a pretty unconventional life we're living, but we look at each other as we're trying to be the best team possible.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I think team or partnership team, team Team. Team.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:What's the difference between? I want to know what your difference is between team and partnership.
Speaker 2:I just played sports. Yeah, I think that's mine.
Speaker 3:I think it's just like a little bit of our mentality is that it's a team. I do think that team allows for there to be more than just the two of us. I think innately what that means, or like easily what that means, is our son is also a part of our team, sure, like he doesn't know it yet but he is, he does, he does yeah and, like he, he unknowingly contributes to the functioning of our team, right, sure. And so I think that maybe in that way.
Speaker 2:No, absolutely. And now other people are part of that team and helping with this life experience.
Speaker 3:Life experience, whether it's friendships or relationships, or even just like you know. Anyway, I think that we have to operate in a modus that is not just we do not exist for each other.
Speaker 1:Sure, and then the reason I asked that is because what I heard as you were speaking, brig, is this beautiful transition from marriage to a distinction called partnership, where it's, it's, um, it's so much bigger than a marriage, it's so much bigger, you know, and I like the term team.
Speaker 1:I get that. I get that. I get that instinctively, intuitively, spiritually. I get that as team, because we are all here as a team. Little do we know, you know, and I always tell people, if you were meant to do it by yourself, you'd be the only person on this planet and unfortunately you're not. So we're here to be team, you know, but we're also here in partnership. We're here in this understanding of this, this give and this take, this ebb and this flow, this receive. You know giving, receiving, but even more so in allowance and really allowing somebody to unfold. And it sounds like, when I look at your guys' journey, it sounds like there's been this really beautiful divine unfolding. It sounds like there's been this really beautiful divine unfolding, but there's something at the foundation of the two of you that has allowed you to really communicate and move through it, because so many couples do not make it through any of that Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:So there's something really special about the two of you. I think that, if I can interrupt, I think Monica did a really good job of talking just what you're saying, how we really hit like a fork in the road and there was two different, you know two different destinations for us and she just said it a few weeks ago and it I think that every partnership relationship is on this trajectory to one of two places.
Speaker 3:The first is separation, like you don't end up together for whatever reason, right, whatever reason. And the second is settling for less than happy, which is probably a really hard or maybe a hard thing for people to hear, but I think that it is entirely unrealistic for you as a person to expect one singular person to provide everything that you need physically, emotionally and intellectually. And I think that we've set relationships I'm not going to say marriages, relationships on this pedestal to say that we should be expecting this person to meet a hundred percent of our interpersonal needs. Yes, and so the settling comes from recognizing finally, kind of like coming to terms with the fact that that person is not going to do that for you and you deciding that less than a hundred percent is okay. And for some people, like they think that as a willing sacrifice, this dog, um, they think that as a like a noble sacrifice, right, that that that's what love is.
Speaker 3:I don't believe any of that. I think that that settling either breeds the resentment that causes a separation or just you live less than happy, and so we don't have to go fully into this yet, if you don't want to. But I think deciding to be in an open marriage was us choosing a detour and we might still end up at one of those two destinations separation or settling like determining that that is good enough for us. But for now, we have recognized this lack of 100% happiness and our partnership looks like relinquishing control of that and allowing other people to fill those buckets for us in ways that we cannot do for one another.
Speaker 1:Okay, let's talk about that, cause that's a great segue. Again, you two are fucking phenomenal because you know to listen to you guys speak, and to listen to you, monica, speak, I'm like God, I know not at your age.
Speaker 1:God help me. You know it's, it's not normal. It's not normal. You have a really um I don't even know the words I'm trying to bring, but it, it, you guys, are a product of how far we have come as a global community. Let's just say that. Okay, it says a lot about your parents, but it also says a lot about who you are and you are a product of how far we're coming, and that's.
Speaker 1:I love seeing this and let's talk about that. You know what? What was the day? Take me back to it when you were like, okay, we're going to do this, and how did you feel? Like, what did you have to get over? And maybe you had nothing to get over. Maybe you're like, okay, we're going to do this, and how did you feel? Like, what did you have to get over? And maybe you had nothing to get over. Maybe you're like, oh, let's do this. But I'm going to assert that maybe you were like stomaching something of like. Are you really going to explore this? Because what does that mean for me? What are people going to think of me? What are people going to think of us? Like, what occurred in that moment?
Speaker 2:I think it's funny because it felt like it happened like a whirlwind. It felt like it came on so quickly. But looking back, I think that the conversation actually started quicker or earlier than we even imagined.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I think that you know we got through our hard times but we still felt unhappy. And we go out and we look at people who are, you know, sitting in restaurants or out and about and everybody feels it seems like everybody's unhappy and we started to question a lot about how that mindset of what life is supposed to look like and all those ideals are just set into us, right?
Speaker 2:And we started to question where does that come from and who made up these rules? And why is that? What happened? You know, like once we had the baby and then it's like okay, now are we just parents. And now we go and get old and die of a disease and look back and say this was a great life, like I didn't. And we? We felt like we had lost our identity, right? We?
Speaker 2:it went from us being young and fun and out and about, to now we're just parents and we're stuck in the house, and it was like that for two years and it was quite depressing. So we started to question a lot as to what. What is happiness?
Speaker 3:Yeah, and what's our life? What do we want our life to look like?
Speaker 2:Is happiness the same for everybody? Yeah, and what's our life? What spark back in our life and around intimacy? That really led up to this, and I think that it gave us some big answers to our questions. I know for monica, I'd kind of change your mindset for sure, just because we grew up in a very religious household.
Speaker 3:I am not religious at all anymore, but obviously that upbringing ingrains in you this concept of Sin. Yeah, first of all, just you know, the physical aspect of relationships is like accepted but also taboo. It's like this bizarre thing. But I think that I also was questioning aspects of my sexuality. I was questioning aspects of like what is physical intimacy to me and how does that relate to my partner and my partner's needs within physical intimacy? And so we started to, I guess, experiment explore, have conversations around it really start to be more open with each other.
Speaker 2:Um, another taboo thing that we're open to talking about we, you know, tried to add in aspects in our love life. Um, I know that we added in, you know, watching pornography together and I think that that clicked something in monica as yeah.
Speaker 1:What did?
Speaker 3:that click? Yeah, for me it clicked. I think, two important things. One was this aspect of like. I don't think that, like you know, I don't think that I'm homosexual. I think that I'm probably somewhere in the spectrum of being bisexual, like I think that women are beautiful and I find them very attractive. Yes, that which is super important to this second part, which is I also found the concept of being with more than one partner in a sexual situation to be very intriguing to me. Sure, and so we started to have a conversation about should we have a threesome? That sounds good to me. Does that sound good to you? What would that look like? How would we do that? Um, and it definitely opened up that. I guess it lifted the, lifted the lid on this box that I thought had to be kept really tight. My whole life Tight and quiet, yeah, yeah, it's like that's a private thing.
Speaker 1:No, no, no.
Speaker 3:We were openly in front of our friends, like this is something that we would love to do, not with any of you, because that would be weird, but also maybe. Yeah, if it happens, if it happens.
Speaker 1:You know it's funny, you bring all that up. So I used to teach back. When I lived in Los Angeles I had a sensual movement course that I taught with women and it was designed to help women break free of any constraints that they had around their body and body image, but even to remove a lot of this taboo stuff around sex. And one of the things I would do we'd go on a field trip and we would buy fun sexual or sensual clothing. So they'd have to dance, because it was a pole dancing class. But I also took them to strip clubs because I wanted them to realize it's not a big, scary place.
Speaker 3:And I went to my first one. What was six months ago? Not even a year ago?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and, and the majority of these women could give a shit about your man and when your man is there, he's not doing half the things you think, okay, know all this from experience. Or if he is, it's because there's something that you're not doing at home that he would like, that he's afraid to ask for.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:So there's all these things. Well, what ended up happening is all these women were like, oh my God, I love coming, let's go again. And oh my God, I took my husband and I took my boyfriend and you know, it like becomes this thing because it's, you know, we, you know, I don't think that the issue they have, this issue in Europe, because Europe is so much more open sexually, but we have a mess here when it comes to sexuality, sensuality, you know, I mean, from a young child, I was dreaming about women and thinking that, you know, and I grew up in a Catholic household and you know, condemn, condemn, condemn that sin, sin, sin. And so when I was in my 20s and when I became quite wild in my 20s, I explored all that and it was wonderful.
Speaker 1:You know, I sometimes wonder if we're not all probably bisexual. I mean hell like. And who cares Like sexual fluidity? And you know, I sometimes wonder if we're not all probably bisexual. I mean, hell like, who cares Like sexual fluidity? And you know, but I prefer men. I do prefer men, but like you, Monica, I am with the women and I'm like, holy God, like when I worked at the club and I would watch these women dance. It's stunning. Women are so incredibly sensual and so incredibly beautiful, like gorgeous, all shapes and sizes, and to really have people that are so afraid to feel that and get that for themselves. It's just really like what's possible, right, what's possible inside of relationships when we can remove all that stigma, when we can remove all that taboo bullshit. But, anyways, thank you for sharing and so, yeah, so okay. So there you were six months ago. You're at the strip club, you're talking to your friends, you're being open, and so then what?
Speaker 2:I think that we hit a point where you know we started that communication and it was like, yeah, let's, let's go and experiment with this. If that's something that you're into and you want to go explore it, let's go try it. But at the same time we realized it's not as easy as you think. Right, there isn't just a store you can go to where you're a married couple and say, hey, come have a threesome with us. It's a bit more difficult than that.
Speaker 2:So for a long time it felt almost just like this idea. That was unattainable and it was exciting to talk about, but it didn't feel real until the person that we call our witch came into our lives. It was a friend of a friend and you know just some conversations and a comment in passing. And you know just some conversations and a comment in passing. And you know one comment kind of stuck and it was the way I explain it is, you know, if you think about a movie where it like zooms into your eyeball and like a bird hatches out of an egg and a volcano erupts, and it was like holy shit, like this may actually happen. So I got to my car and ran home and I'm like you won't believe what just happened. It kind of just came out of nowhere and um, you know. So I've never planned anything as quickly as I did that.
Speaker 1:Um sure, I mean what was that like, monica? What was that like um?
Speaker 3:so I think he, first of all, he came home and said you know, we've been talking about this thing a lot. Um, I think that I found a person if you would be open to it and I had also met this person too, yeah, and I was like, oh, yeah, okay, I think, I think we could do that, and what ensued over the next 48 hours was a lot of conversation like are we sure that this is something that we want to do? What will it look like?
Speaker 3:what will some of the parameters be, um, between us and then between this other person. We roll. You know, us and this person are in a very similar circle of people and so we don't want to mess that up. And ultimately, I think, I just I think I might've said something like I mean, the opportunity is here.
Speaker 2:Like what? Why wouldn't we do this? So don't, don't talk about it?
Speaker 3:be about it. Why wouldn't we do this? Um and so you know, we picked a place, we went to drinks before we, the three, of us had a conversation where we set guidelines for what was okay or not okay for either of us, and then the experience itself was just lovely. I had a wonderful time.
Speaker 1:I heard it was a lot of fun. Oh, it was very fun.
Speaker 3:And I think Brig talks about this as a pivotal moment, not because, like, we had this sexual experience that we had never had before, I had never had before. That had been kind of swirling in my mind, mainly about I have never thought sex was emotional and but I had also only had sex with people that I had some level of emotional intimacy with, and so this was my first time experiencing sex with a partner who I have emotional intimacy with and with someone I do not, and I walked away from the situation having zero jealousy, like just able to enjoy the experience for what it was. It affirmed that like, yes, I have some level of attraction towards women, but that this changes nothing about the way that I feel about myself, the way that I feel about my partner and it I don't know, I guess. I guess that it was especially groundbreaking because we're married, like this idea that I could be physically intimate with someone else while we're married and it's not disruptive to our marriage.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. And it also causes us to just really overly communicate, like leading up to that. I mean we had been good communicators before, but leading up to an experience like that, where a lot's on the line and could be super emotional, could be jealousy, could be like detrimental in some people's eyes.
Speaker 2:but it really caused us to sit down and talk and give each other an out, give each other a platform to talk about that, and so I think that that's another big piece to this. Today, where you know our lives, we just rely on exhaustive, exhaustive communication to make sure that we're both in a good spot.
Speaker 1:Which is that's phenomenal. Would you say now, today, that you see sex more sensually, or is it still? How do I say that? I want to say it's not, the word's not transactional, it's not that, it's um. I guess the question is what. What else has opened up for you when you look at the act of sex and sensuality with partners? I think it can be collapsed with love, and it doesn't mean that there's love. It can be a sensual exchange of energy.
Speaker 2:I think that you both are saying and I think that sex is sensual with people, that you are sensual with, or there's love involved with people you feel loved or like it's. It can also just be more of two adults having fun.
Speaker 1:Right and experience yeah.
Speaker 2:I call it a. You know, sometimes it's just a very, very, very intimate handshake.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Skin touching and so so it can go either way, but you know it's. I think that we were both able to completely remove this idea that marriage or partnership or relationships revolves around ownership, revolves around ownership. And you know, I don't think that this, I own this woman and that I should be the only person that she looks at or thinks about or talks about or has sex with. We remove that mindset, and so, you know, I look at it as if she wants to go be fulfilled in a physical way. There's no, I have no issue with that. That makes sense.
Speaker 3:I think the other thing too, that I think that it has made our physical intimacy better. I think we, first of all our experiences with other people can sometimes be the backdrop to now our experiences with one another. I think the other thing is we're pretty intentional about after we've been with someone else, coming back together as a way to kind of like, reaffirm our partnership, reaffirm our partnership. But I also think that I talk I've talked a lot about in our conversations like this concept of like. Not everybody can fulfill you a hundred percent Right, and so, if we just take the physical intimacy part of that, our physical relationships with other partners often fill a piece of our physical relationship with one another that we don't really like to give to each other.
Speaker 3:Right Like there are certain things sexually that are just like not my favorite thing to do, or I just, you know, like don't turn me on, so I don't really want to be a part of that, and vice versa. And so if we can find somebody else who provides that for us or gives us that physical intimacy in a way that our partner does not, we're no longer holding each other to this like. Sometimes it feels like an obligatory, like I have to do this.
Speaker 1:I have to do this.
Speaker 3:I have to do this because otherwise who else is going to do this for them? Like it, he is much more of a physical person than I am too, and so say more about that. What do you mean? I have never had a very high sex drive, so I do not. I do not seek physical intimacy often, and I think that that has been sometimes the source of some contention in our relationship, like I think that was more during the time.
Speaker 2:yeah, not to cut you out, I think that was more definitely more during the time of when sex was a chore yeah. You know, I was trying to have children and I think that that became not an issue, but definitely you know, kind of drove that idea that you know, maybe that's something that I'm much more driven by.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but I even think too after having a kid, sure Like you're just tired at the end of the day.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, and your hormones change, like everything shifts when you have a baby, and so it just takes. It takes the pressure off.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I feel like, and so maybe this is more me, and one of the things that I've gained out of this is I feel like a lot of the pressure is off and that we get to be with each other in ways like that are more fulfilling to ourselves and our relationship.
Speaker 2:I do and I don't. I don't want to jump ahead of you, Tara, but I do, you know a lot of the a lot of the conversation has been geared around that physical aspect. But and it's funny because that's the reaction that we get from when we, when we're very open about this to friends, strangers, you know, you know how guys are their first reaction is oh dude, how did you pull that off?
Speaker 1:that's amazing, yeah, you're going, yeah, yeah it's.
Speaker 2:That's an a small aspect of it, is that physical side, but it's more so you know being out, being able to go out and experience life you know, and so yes there's physical attributes where maybe we're not feeling for each other, but also, you know, it's conversationally or hey, I met this person who challenged me in a different way. Or I'm going to go to this concert with this person that you wouldn't usually go to or something like that.
Speaker 2:So yes, there's the physical aspect, and that's what everybody thinks of of an open marriage, but for us it was more. We want to take our identity back and be able to go and enjoy life and I'm just gonna say it's, it's the removal of ownership.
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah, a hundred percent.
Speaker 3:And I think that, if you're to look at and I am no expert and have done basically no research on this, but, um, I mean, marriage was about ownership. It was basically you were claiming a woman for property, and so this concept of ownership in a relationship, or being like beholden to a single person, is, first of all, whack. Second of all, is not going to breed positive relationship.
Speaker 1:Well, and you think about yes, and. And then you think about in america, I mean, when we look back, we look back at like a royal situation it was all about. It was all about the alliance of families and families, money, and there were all kinds of partners with those people that were married to fulfill whatever needs needed to happen. Now here in America we have a whole different context of it, like ownership. I'm actually reading this book. I now forget the name of it, but it comes from a very religious context of marriage and it's actually breaking it down and it's more about a partnership and it's more about the support of one another and it's still in the whole biblical form. But it's interesting because, yeah, again, nothing is black and white, it's all gray. And when we look at marriage and I think maybe it's because marriage is on its way to be redefined today, moving away from this ownership, because there are a lot of conveniences with the fiscal aspect of marriage in this country, there's benefits and then there's a lot of lack of benefits, like you talk about divorce, that's like a whole nother, like insane, as we know people moving through that and state to state. You know a lot of people get royally screwed in that process around ownership and financial ownership, and whose is what I mean. So I feel like we and you guys are really at the probably forefront of this redefinition of what marriage looks like. This redefinition of what marriage looks like and can we walk through marriage till death, do us part, so they say, removing all the ideology around it and having it be unconventional?
Speaker 1:Because one of the things I always say, too lately in the past few years, anybody who chooses to be with me, that I choose to take to be with me, has to know that it will be very unconventional. I don't live a conventional life. I'm a full-time single parent. I'm not changing for anybody, nor do I want anybody to change for me. I'm not looking for somebody to move in and like be the person that lives here with us, like I'm not looking for any of that I'm looking for. I know what I'm looking for, but it's very unconventional, you know, because a lot of people are like let's just be in a relationship right away and it's like dude, I just met you, I just met you. Could we just get to know each other please, because I just met you and just tell me you want to get laid, because if I'm not in the mood, don't try it. I really do, like the whole world of dating right now is really funny, cause that's what I that's.
Speaker 1:The first thing I say is like, what's your intention? Because I might be interested in your intention, but I know what I want and if I'm not interested, then I'm. We're not on the same page, and so it's, it's, it's. It's like we're redefining and we're re-experiencing and we're re-sorting through what this means marriage, partnership, marriage with kids and now we're going to bring other people into the fold of the team. So I want to talk about that too, and I know like I have no time limit on this, but and I know we have a time limit on time that we're on here but I want to get into there are new people in your lives, yeah. So let's talk about that, let's transition.
Speaker 3:I think, to transition to that it would be. You asked a question earlier that I want to answer as part of this transition, which is like what challenges like or what kind of barriers did you have to break down to get to this point? The biggest one for me was, and the biggest thing that our closest friends are concerned about or ask questions about is like well, what happens when you catch feelings for someone else? And so for me, when we started moving from this concept of like, I recognize that I am not I'm actually not a threesome person. I don't really like to be shared, I would like to be prioritized and so and so. So what that meant for us was like, but we did like to have these experiences and it kind of opened that like was the. It opened it.
Speaker 3:And so, when we started to talk about like, well, that like was the it opened it. And so, when we started to talk about like well, what if you continue to see this person that we have now seen together but I'm not interested in seeing her like is what's going to happen if you start to like like her and or if she starts to like you? And I think that what I had to break down personally, was this idea of, just like you can be physically intimate with multiple people and those mean different things to you you can be emotionally intimate with multiple people and and I don't think that that needs to be a harm to a person you are already emotionally intimate with I think that we don't. We we use this concept of like catching feelings or falling in love as if it only happens with this one person.
Speaker 2:Like your, your soulmate in this whole world happened to grow up 10 minutes from you.
Speaker 3:I think we fail to recognize that we actually have so many people we are emotionally intimate with.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 3:We love our family in a specific way and have emotional intimacy with them in a specific way. We love our friends in a specific way and have emotional intimacy with them in a specific way. We love our friends in a specific way and have emotional intimacy with them. I don't. I mean we talk about work wives and work husbands. You establish emotional intimacy with people you work with.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 3:And sometimes that turns into physical intimacy and that's tends to be where it causes problems for people. But the reality is you build these relationships, yes, and so what he challenged me a lot on was what if that happens? He didn't tell me what I should think. He was just like. Okay, I'm going to answer your question with a question what if that happens? And it caused me to really think about like I don't know and I don't really have any again reason not to Well, and you have nothing to go against.
Speaker 1:It's like this is all new territory for all of you, all of you, all of you, because I think there's a four. Right, there's four.
Speaker 3:Yes, greg is seeing someone and I am seeing someone.
Speaker 1:Yes. And so and maybe that I don't know much about your half, monica. Maybe that's something he's done before, but I mean that's, it's all new territory.
Speaker 2:Yeah it really is. And so, talking about your question of you know what are your intentions, it's really tough to balance because you know we we try to be, we are good people, right, and we don't want to hurt anybody's emotions, we want to keep everybody's thoughts intact and, and you know, balance all of that. But at the same time, you know we joke that we've been alive for 35 years, we've run into almost every situation out there. We know how to handle them and navigate them cleanly. This is brand new and so there's no guide as to what the hell we're doing.
Speaker 2:So you know, as much as we want to give a clear answer as to what our intentions are, we have no fucking idea for the most part, and we're figuring this out, just as these other two people are, and so every single day is kind of a learning like situation, not to mention and I'll bring this up because I know I know a lot but I don't know everything.
Speaker 1:I know a lot but the other piece is then managing with, with the people that you're seeing I like this People that you're seeing Then navigating and managing your own emotions that show up in the construct of relationship and what our ideology of relationship is, because you're married, they're not, and then we have to remove all like you can't expect anything outside of anything Like you can't say you.
Speaker 1:You can't go date other people, you're married, and I'm not saying that this is what you're, that you're what you're doing, but I'm saying this is the stuff that comes up, just as human nature, because we are conditioned to believe that it has to look this way. And then, all of a sudden, you have these emotions and these feelings coming up and you're like wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. And it's like, yeah, no, you wait a minute, you both have to wait a minute, you both have to simmer down because now you have to deal with what is that even coming up? What insecurity, what fear, what void are you filling, like all that human stuff? And that's where I think this stuff gets really powerful and juicy, because this is when you're really breaking down who you are and really falling inside of your own truth and having to remove all kinds of layers of shit that you may not have even known was there yeah yeah, until it got triggered by this, by this experience that you're walking for sure.
Speaker 2:I mean, the the emotional aspect has been the biggest thing to balance here, and I think that it did start with that question where, after that one night experience, it was you know well, what if we were to go see somebody on our own and questioning what does that, what does that feel like to you, right? And then that starts to question of, well, what if emotions happen and they're going to right? We went into this saying, all right, we can have unemotional sexual encounters. At the end of the day, you're human and hanging out with good people, and you are also, once you start dating, you go back to that honeymoon phase that we're talking about, where everything's exciting right and so for us, where we went through years of tough times.
Speaker 2:Then we went through two years of just being parents and locked in the house during COVID and now, all of a sudden, you're going out and having these new experiences, these new conversations. You're getting challenged mentally, you're going to get emotions.
Speaker 3:It's going to happen. Yeah, One of the things that we have been very intentional with in our relationship with each other and our relationship with other people. We set some very specific rules, um, that need to be followed so that the intentions are very clear from the start.
Speaker 3:And so that we are establishing an open line of communication and like letting each other know, kind of, where we are with these other people. So one of the main rules is we do not hide our situation. Like within the first five minutes of meeting someone like, or initial conversation that you ever have with someone new, we have to say I am married, I am in an open relationship, I have a kid, like I'm not going to pretend to like, establish or create whatever this could eventually be under the guise of some kind of like lie or hiding Right, and I think that that has been a much easier conversation for me to have with men than it is for him to have with women. Interesting, interesting. I mean the person that I'm seeing is like, yeah, no, this is great. I don't think I ever want to get married and I know I never want to have kids.
Speaker 3:And I was like great, because I will provide neither of those things for you. Let's just keep hanging out, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would say yeah, it turns out. If you want to make your life less stressful, it doesn't help to add in more emotions and more people all the time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Right, Well, you know, and I'll I'm sorry go ahead.
Speaker 2:No, no, no, no no no go, I just you know it has. I always joke about it with Monica where you know. Now I feel like we're kind of both just seeing one person each, but before it was much easier for Monica to walk up to a group of guys and be like hey, do you guys like no-tie sex? And you know, do you?
Speaker 1:like hot women that you don't have to you know have any part of.
Speaker 2:And the answer is yes, and like if I walked up to a group of women and said that I would probably be arrested. There's a very different dynamic for the two of us.
Speaker 1:That's true, and and and again. That falls under ideology, which is unfortunate, which is very unfortunate and I think I think in our children's age maybe your son, maybe not so much in my son it'll be very much opening.
Speaker 1:It'll probably be for my son It'll be like this conversation right here, but for your son it'll probably be wide open and those ideologies really broken down you know and and dissolved and um, yeah, it's, it's fascinating, you know, and I I get to watch one of those people, I get to watch the journey she goes through, on on through that and and, and I I support her. I've always supported her, knowing where she's at and what she's moving through. I never put any type of constraint on anything Like when all of this started opening up, I was like, girl, do your thing.
Speaker 1:Go experience it and like you, monica, I'm similar where, yeah, I've, I've been in threesomes and actually I was dating somebody last year who would very much wanted to do threesomes and I ended up stop dating him because I was like you're, you're enough for me, like it's just, I want to be, I want to be, prioritized.
Speaker 1:I love that you said that I don't. I don't and it isn't that I wouldn't do a threesome Like, if I'm in the mood, I'll do fucking just about anything, but but when it comes to relationship and not that I wouldn't entertain an open situation, because on on the apps, there's a lot of couples on there. You actually can go shop for that on the apps because we're open and I've entertained some, but nine times out of 10, I'm not typically attracted to them. Yeah, it's just. You know, I don't.
Speaker 1:I guess what I'm trying to say is I don't have a problem with whatever people choose to do. Like, whatever you do, do it and to your point, it really is important to be authentic of who the truth like. Who, truthfully, are you, what, truthfully, is your intention and what are you working to create. So I would say, okay, here's what I'd like to ask what would you share with? You know it's predominantly women who listen to this show. Whether they're single, I don't know. You know it's geared towards single women, but it's really geared towards just people. This show, what would you? What advice would you give people that are either exploring this or yeah, well, let's start there. What advice would you give people that are exploring this from both sides from both sides, whether they're single, in one or in a marriage and wanting to explore this what would you give the advice? Yeah, I.
Speaker 2:I think that. So we're never the team to preach that what we're doing is the right way to live. That actually goes against everything that we think about. Right? We're not saying that everybody should have this idea. I think that our whole mentality is figure out what makes you happy and what lets you experience your life. And once you figure that out, then go do it Right.
Speaker 2:And so you know, we had all these thoughts of you know, what are people going to think about us, what are our families going to think? And we're still have to cross that bridge and that'd be a fun conversation. But we, we went for it, right, and we, we sat down, we realized we are a team and we're in this together. But you know, part of that team, ship or teamwork is making sure that we're both extremely happy, and so we figured out what that would look like and we went for it, and so I think that it has made us closer.
Speaker 2:I think it's made things a lot easier in our house. We're both having fun, we're both experiencing our life. So that would be my recommendation is, you know, it's okay to go against the norm, and that's that's not just in marriage, that could be any aspect of your life, right? And I feel like people have to hide a lot of what they feel or what they want to do because of other people's, their circles, ideals, and I think that's bullshit. And so we felt that we went for it. And you know, we're four months in, still super early, and we're still learning a lot, but it's it's working.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I, I think, um, I think often, as women, we deprioritize ourselves in favor of others. Yep, and if this is something that seems interesting to you, what I'm guessing is you're in one of two situations. One, you are unhappy and you want to see if doing this will make you happier, and I am in full support of that. To what Brig just said, like, go for what is going to fulfill you in your life. The other reason that you could be considering this is that your partner has said that they are considering this and if that is the situation, default to answer a, which is figure out what's going to make you happy and do that.
Speaker 3:And so, like Brick said, like this is not for everyone, like I talked to a lot of my friends and their their biggest, the biggest takeaway at the end of our conversations is as long as you are happy, monica, then I am happy for you. The second biggest takeaway is that half of them are like I could never do that and that's okay. I don't expect that everybody could do this. I don't expect that people, that everybody has the same mindset, that you know that you can have multiple intimate relationships with people and feel good in that situation. I would challenge a lot of people to kind of like break down where does that come from for you?
Speaker 1:That's exactly what I was going to say.
Speaker 3:Because I think that the reality is that the reason that you feel like that is because you have these preconceived notions and you're never really challenged your own ideals or what the world has told you should be your ideals. But we're not telling everybody to do this. I don't think it's for everybody, but I do believe in a very selfish pursuit of your own happiness.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that. And I will say this I, 25 years ago so I'm 54, 20 years ago I would have said I could never do this, even though I had my young, wild years. Even when I did it, then I struggled with it because I was insecure, I had zero self-worth, didn't know who I was as a woman. I was in my 20s, you don't know that yet I wasn't confident. Even though I'm on stage nude, you know, doing my thing, doing quite well at it, couldn't see any of who I really was hence why I was on that stage of who I really was, hence why I was on that stage Today.
Speaker 1:So anybody and I will say this, I will say this, I will challenge anybody, if they want to be challenged, when they say they could never do it, because then I'd say then there are aspects of you that are unhealed. Now, if you heal that stuff and it also goes back to your question of Mm hmm, choose me, I'm not the one. And that comes from an eight-year-old mentality, from when my dad left, and so I couldn't be with that pain, because then that meant abandonment for me.
Speaker 1:It means you don't love me, and you know what. Okay, so now that I understand that I love myself enough that like, hey, if you don't love me, you don't love me, if you don't choose me, you don't choose me. But did I choose you? Like, I finally got to that, but it's taken 50, some odd years to get there. Yeah, right, so today, you know, could I be in an open situation? Absolutely, it's just a matter of if I want to.
Speaker 1:And here's what I will say with the person who wanted to do it with me last year, I didn't want to do it with him, but there's somebody that I date right now where we're kind of in an open situation and I can give a shit what he does, don't care at all, don't care at all. But we have a level of communication that is so off the charts, open, and it's really like what him and I and this dear friend that mutually we know she always says that you bring that energy, you bring that. He shows up in that and that's what the two of you were able to create. And I was like, whoa, you're right, yeah, because with that other person it wasn't there and it just wasn't and it was. There was nothing that I was insecure or jealous about with him either. It just wasn't something I wanted to do with him.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think that that's a good point, to like to bring it back to where I talk about, like the fork in the road and the detour we're taking. Also, if you make this choice, like to your point, it's not for every relationship. It could be for you, but it could not be for your current relationship. It could also be for you and for your current relationship, but only for now. Yes, we are very open when we talk about this with each other that we could still end up at one of those two other destinations, enjoying our life as it is coming to us right now, taking it for what it is, making the most of it, and then, as we grow and evolve, we'll figure out if this is still right for us. You're either going to grow together or grow apart.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're only ever expanding or contracting. You're only ever growing together or growing apart. And that growing together and growing apart could be going weaving in and out of the marriage for years. Right, yeah, and what I love about what you two have taken on, which means you're gonna be able to take on literally anything, because this is one of the biggest taboo issues Right, you may grow apart, but you may really grow together. I mean there's and you here's the other thing, because I'm just I'm kind of seeing some things. You may grow together and always have these two other people for years who knew but there's, a lot of people that have done that.
Speaker 1:There's a lot Hollywood, okay, and I just say celebrities because we hear about this. After the fact, there are a lot of people that do that. I have a dear friend who calls it rich, rich people married, because she's in a situation where these people have been married for years 30 years, 20 years, some odd years and they both have their people on the sides. That's what works, and her and this person have been a long time lover situation and and there's nothing there, there's no issues with it and to get rich.
Speaker 2:Yeah right, I'm just missing that one piece. Just one. We'll get there.
Speaker 1:Right, we'll all get there. But yeah, I mean it's just, it really is. If there's anything I would like to leave with people that listen to this show is that we're not on here saying, hey, this is what you need to do. What my real intent is, life is happening for you. What are you going to do with what shows up? Okay, who are you going to be? How are you going to communicate through it? How are you going to grow through it?
Speaker 1:And this is a topic that's a hot topic because it really is a real topic that shows up in, I think, almost every marriage. I don't think there is a single marriage that didn't deal. There are some people that their destiny, their faith, their experience was meant to do the full-blown marriage. I do know people that are just happy, beyond happy, beyond happy, beyond happy, doing what they're doing in that conventional situation, and that's the experience. They came as a soul. That's their soul's purpose. There's a lot of us other ones, that came in and we're here to experience all kinds of things. So if it shows up for you and you want to be open to it, be open to it. If it shows up for you and you're clear you don't want to, then you need to just ask yourself where does that come from and how does it show up in other parts of your life?
Speaker 1:Okay, because wherever you're going to say I will never do that, and I've learned to never say never. The moment you say never, you will get the thing. I said I would never live in Arizona. I lived there for seven years. I said I would never drive a red Ford Escort. The first car I got was a 1981 red Ford Escort. I've learned never say never. When I've said I'm never going to date that person, I end up with that person and God's funny that way. That's how I believe the universe has a funny sense of humor.
Speaker 1:But you really just want to ask yourself where does the no come from? Is it an ideology? Is it really at your core? Or is it because the world told you no? Is it just because you just react and say no to everything right away? But really what's back there is you want to do it. You know, like whatever it is, whatever it is, I want to leave people with this. We're not saying, hey, go do this, but it's a very interesting conversation and I just, you know, I guess I feel like we should wrap up, but there's probably more, lots of more juicy stuff to talk about. But I do want to thank you both for being open and candid and sharing. There's so much more I wanted to dive into.
Speaker 1:I'm like, oh, I mean, we could go on for hours about this topic and because there are so many, you know, I would hope one day I could have all four of you on here, because there is this, yeah, because there is this, there is the whole other side of the other people on the outside and what they have to navigate For sure, both from what their friends or family may think, both from what they think about themselves, the stuff they have to deal with with themselves, about you know, I think a term that's like side piece, like where does that come from? What would have us feel that we are, that that actually has nothing to do with what's happening here. It's just triggering a conversation that's showing up. So if anything I have watched inside of this situation that you two have gone on to experience is I've seen a lot of growth of human beings and I've seen and Monica, I'm just meeting you today, which I'm super excited to meet you in person eventually. I think it's a beautiful experience Because it really forces everybody to have to really take a look at who they are at the core, because love, intimacy, sex I'm going to say love and intimacy and partnership, friendship relationships.
Speaker 1:They are gray.
Speaker 1:They're really, really gray and they really are here, I believe, to be explored on so many levels and I really believe that you really find who you are at your core.
Speaker 1:Like there's a lot of people that will tell me I can't believe you do all that dating and dating on the apps. I hate dating and dating sucks. I'm like, hey, you know what A dear friend of mine and I we want to do an episode just about the dating apps. I've learned so much about myself and who I am through dating on the dating apps because of all the multitude of people I have met and all of the stuff I've had to move through and all of the things that I've had to push my own limits or boundaries or push my own self against things where I got triggered and really learning how to be open and allow people to just be who they are, just allow people to show up. And now I'm in a place where men will be like you're just so easy to talk to. You're just so authentic or you're just so relaxed because I give a fuck anymore.
Speaker 2:You know what you want.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, to your, to Monica's point, I'm not trying to be this thing. I'm showing up as who I am, like this is me. I'm not going to be what you, what I think you want me to be. And we women do that. I think men do too. We show up in some way and I think when you start to just get out there and really practice dating, you realize that you know we're all just out there fumbling around trying to figure shit out.
Speaker 1:I mean, can I tell you the amount of people that lie about their height and their age? And I'm like, why do you have to lie about your height? Why, why, why, why? It's like a thing Like men are like I'm 5'10", I'm like you're 5'6". I don't understand, like, why are you doing that? You know, but that falls into that stuff of we're being who we think you need us to be, so that you accept us, so that you'll love us, so that you'll talk to us, so that you'll, you know, let me into your circle, whatever it is, you know. And so, yeah, I just I acknowledge you guys at the highest level.
Speaker 1:What you're doing is so brave and courageous. It's beautiful. I think that you guys have handled it in such a incredible way. You know, and I'm sure each of you have moved through many things to get to where you are today I see a lot of love between the two of you. I don't see yeah, I really do. I don't see you can see couples when they get next to each other. You could see, like the, you know, you can see it. There's a lot of flow here, a lot of relaxness. Yeah, yeah, yes, the team.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but we are. We're still trying to figure this out as well you know, we're navigating a lot, but it's it's been fun to do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, what else would you like to share, if anything? Is there anything more you'd like to share today?
Speaker 2:I don't think so. I think that this definitely calls for a second episode with you. I hope, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I would love to do more with you. Yeah, and I think you know we are. Oh, should we?
Speaker 1:shameless plug. Shameless plug, yes, please.
Speaker 3:I was gonna say, I was gonna say let's talk about it yes, um, it is called seeing other people and, uh, and it is just almost like a live, live documentary of our experience moving into an open marriage. Um, we're talking a lot about a lot of the things that we talked about today, kind of how did we get here? Um. But then we really want to make it about like kind of live update on our experiences, conversations with our partners, conversations with people who are very anti or very pro this experience, and so we will let you know when we drop our first episode.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, I cannot wait, I'm so excited. Yeah, I just I love you both and I thank you so much and it's it's funny that it's only been four months. I'm like it feels like it's been so much longer.
Speaker 1:But there's yeah there's a lot of ground that's been covered in a very short amount of time. Yeah, for sure. You know, as you guys is is just yeah, and I and I like again, I can't say how well you guys do, even if it looks or feels messy You're life is messy, right, and you're doing great, and I always say, get your ass on the fucking court. You know, I have an episode called the court of life. Like people want to sit on the sideline and talk about shit and give shit and you know, judge shit. It's like you know, get your butt out there on the court and fall down and you know, pass the ball. You know, try some three pointers. Sometimes you're going to make them and sometimes you're not. Like I really see life as a basketball game. That's how I always see it. You know, and it's this high speed, like back and forth, and you're on the court and you're just playing full out. Like you're playing full out and that's what you guys are doing. You're on the court.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it felt like we were for a while on a path towards a bad ending and I think we'd rather look back and say we gave everything and tried everything and did everything as a team versus just saying you know, it is what it is. So we're at a point now where we're trying to just go have as much as fun, as much fun as possible, and you know, experience our life, and that's that's what it's about.
Speaker 1:Life is an experience, so thank you so much. Oh my gosh, I'm just like wow, okay, so much fun.
Speaker 2:And thank you for having us.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thank you, and we will definitely do it again. Thank you for coming on this healing adventure today. If you're starting to see how everything is falling into place for you, consider rating the show and sharing it with one of your friends. Keep that spirit alive and join me next week. Same place, same time. Have a great week.